This is not my normal kind of post at all, but it’s a thought-provoking one. I’m very interested in what people think about the following discussion I was involved with today with a couple of friends.
It focussed on the philosopher Thomas Hobbes (1588 – 1679). Amongst other things, he believed that all people are selfish and that we only better ourselves for purely selfish reasons. For example, we give to charity to make ourselves feel better. That society also benefits is a handy bonus.
In his view, given half a chance, we would do anything to gain power and wealth. It’s a dog eat dog world.
Because of this, he also believed that people should not be trusted to make decisions on their own. In his view, this is a fundamental flaw of democracy. Governments are created to protect people from their own selfishness and evil.
It’s quite a confronting theory and easily dismissed. After all, who wants to be seen as selfish?
But think about it for a minute. Think about today’s world and the economic strife the world is in. Think about politicians who are more worried about populism than policies. After all this time, was Hobbes right?
- Do you agree with his theory? Are all people selfish?
- Is this the reason why the world is the way it is at the moment, because we’ve given selfish people too much power through democracy?
I don’t think I agree with Hobbes, but I also don’t have a strong argument against it. I mean, it’s not something people would freely admit, that they are selfish. I know I wouldn’t.
What do you think?
June 16, 2012 at 3:44 pm
As opposed to the benefit to society being a handy bonus it is because society benefits that we feel good about ourselves, the more selfless an action the more self gratifying it is.
I also think you give a very bleak view of what Hobbes put forward. If i help someone cross the road I feel better myself and will look to do this again, whilst for selfish reasons it surely only has a positive impact on others?
The current economic/political situation can also be embraced and explained by Hobbes’ ‘leviathan’, whilst it looks bad for us now and we can point at selfishness being a cause, the ‘social contract’ (from bank regulation to sustainable practices etc) needs to be adapted and improved – we can have faith it will be because the pollies and influencers responsible selfishly seek the praise of the masses.
June 16, 2012 at 5:12 pm
I am more and more Hobbsian in my outlook, particularly on the charity front. The world of today makes me more and more cynical. Good thought provoking post.
June 16, 2012 at 5:55 pm
Thanks Roger, it is thought provoking. Thanks for contributing!
June 16, 2012 at 5:22 pm
Ahem, happy for your view, but no swearing please.
June 16, 2012 at 5:33 pm
Took your comment down because of swearing. If you want to rewrite a toned down version, happy to put it up
June 16, 2012 at 10:20 pm
Very interesting indeed! I think I’m with you on where I stand with it. I don’t think I agree totally but I can’t find a strong argument. I think where people are truly selfless they put them selves in a very uncomfortable position to benefit somebody else. However, is that uncomfortableness actually making them feel good about what they are doing and so beneficial to themselves? Mother Theresa for example living in slum conditions with the people she cared for.
June 17, 2012 at 6:48 pm
Hi Peter, he runs a pretty strong argument which in some way takes into account the ‘mother theresa’ example. I would still argue that mt got her personal satisfaction / gratification from sacrificing herself but in addition to this Hobbes was a materialist and didn’t believe in the ascension of a soul etc but Mother Theresa will have believed that she would live on after earth so her life alone would not be a fair example – i considered this along with monks who self-immolate and suicide bombers etc…
June 19, 2012 at 2:29 pm
I don’t think this is true, but probably because I don’t WANT it to be true. But when I think about the ‘selfless’ things I do, I realise they do make me feel good…and so therefore are they selfless at all? Hmmm.
I’d personally love to live in a utopia where everyone cares, loves and hugs each other. The Care Bears used to be my favourite show ;P
June 19, 2012 at 5:42 pm
Ha, same, don’t want it to be true. Probably is but not so black and white. There are many drivers of behavior. While there, i don’t always think selfishness is the main driver.
June 30, 2012 at 5:58 am
I am afraid I think he is probably right. Thank goodness enough people get a nice warm feeling from doing good things.
July 3, 2012 at 11:44 am
It’s a hard one to argue against, even though I don’t really agree with it.
July 3, 2012 at 9:26 am
I like that you did this poll and I voted that I do not agree most people are selfish. I think most would gladly help someone, but to a point I will add. Thanks for stopping by my blog!
July 3, 2012 at 11:45 am
happily most people also think that according to the poll. Thanks for dropping by too.
July 4, 2012 at 3:45 am
I don’t think people are fundamentally selfish, but I do think we all want to be noticed. In our own little corners of the world, I believe we’d like to shine…if only for moments at a time. We’d like to feel we didn’t pass through this world not having made an iota of a difference…to someone.
Add to the mix, differing personalities…from painfully shy to Hitler-like characters. Then throw in the unlimited possibilities of virtues and flaws and we have humankind as we know it…far from perfect.
I do think we try to elevate ourselves to the level of compassionate, caring, hopeful, trusting, loving beings. With feet of clay, however, we never quite sustain a harmonious existence. That is our plight, which we should continue trying to overcome…every moment that we draw breath.
hugs… :)
July 4, 2012 at 8:21 am
Very nicely put!
July 4, 2012 at 8:52 am
good topic…gets one thinking…
July 4, 2012 at 7:17 pm
Cool topic. I belive we are all selfish but not all the time. And some more than others.
And I believe we all improve and better our selves because of a purely selfish motivation. Often that motivation is not bad like greed but satisfaction or relief.
But the society progresses even through occasional selfishness because of obvious positive side effects. And even selfish people wan’t to look good at times :)
July 4, 2012 at 7:35 pm
Hello! And thanks for dropping by. I tend to agree. As long as the selfish attitude has a positive impact, that’s good isn’t it? It’s when it goes the other way I think we have to worry. So should we be asking the question ‘are most people evil or good’?
July 4, 2012 at 9:29 pm
Unfortunately, there is some truth in Hobbes words. Most people are selfish in some ways; even one may not think they are. Pure selflessness is rare nowadays. I am not ruling it out, but it is difficult to find.
Even one who call them selfless, and willing to help and care without expecting something in return, do it for self satisfaction of knowing you make yourself feel better when you do something good- obviously you do really care about the ones your helping as well. However, for me, I would encourage this sort of selfishness. You can do no harm, when you actually doing good for someone else.
Even a selfish person, at some point, and in certain situations are capable to do selfless deeds. Everyone is selfish and the sametime selfless, just in different degrees. Culture, environment and life itself shapes how these degrees can vary.
July 4, 2012 at 9:32 pm
I agree, it’s hard to escape it really. Somehow selfish is perceived as negative, but mostly it isn’t. Thanks for taking the time and posting a well thought out comment.
July 10, 2012 at 11:31 am
I agree with everything you say, and it’s written well… I couldn’t word it myself.
July 7, 2012 at 7:14 am
I think the world has become “it’s all about me,” and “it’s not my fault.” In those two statements there is selfishness, isn’t there? Thanks for the like on my blog!
July 7, 2012 at 10:42 am
Agree! 100%. No probs with the like. Love your blog.
July 7, 2012 at 11:29 am
Thanks!
July 8, 2012 at 11:19 pm
Hello! Your liking one of my first posts in my new blog led me here! And I am grateful for it, especially checking out your posts.
Hmm. Selfish? Maybe. In some way though, a person may view ‘acting selfishly’ as simply preserving his own interests–as would be expected of and natural for anyone. It’s up to you really where you draw the line from self-preservation to selfishness.
With regards to charity, sometimes the reasons behind my giving may be to ease my conscience or I give every time I come out from mass… But sometimes I just give whenever I get an overwhelming desire to help.
Anyway, if people really are selfish, I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing. As long as they do good and are good, still. And oh, I can freely admit to being selfish, as I am [selfish, kind of dreamy and ambitious] most times. :)
July 9, 2012 at 9:18 am
Agree, I think selfishness is not necessarily a bad thing as long as everyone benefits.
Thanks for the comments.
July 9, 2012 at 1:50 am
Hobbes view is rather bleak in a black and white kind of way, and I don’t think that he takes into account that reality is usually many shades of grey.
Himself and I fund-raise for a charity where we know people on the ground administering the limited funds, meeting the needs and confronting the problems every day. It’s a school of the Disabled in the tiny Pacific island nation of Kiribati and they face a common problem of a tiny organisation doing so well “on the ground” that a school originally designed to cater for some 40 kids now caters to more than 100.
Since everyone they are trying to help has a very genuine need they aren’t turning them away, just trying to stretch their resources ever further.
Himself and I thought we might never have kids… after some problems with both as babies we now two very healthy children and some how, some where there IS a notion in us that we have been lucky so “giving back” to some kids who haven’t had good cards dealt to them is a good thing to do.
Is it selfish ? Well possibly the sense of satisfaction of knowing that these kids can have their single hot meal of the day due to our efforts “might” be in Hobbes eyes… but that doesn’t negate the NEED that we see and the feeling inside our hearts that we want/ought to DO something to try and meet that need.
I don’t see Hobbes factoring “conscience”and “humanity” into his black and white theory.
Everyone wants power and wealth? …nah… make that “comfortable and happiness” and I might agree but if Hobbes view was correct wouldn’t every single person on the planet be an entrepreneur, building empires, selling and hell bent on raking in as many of life’s chips as they could?
Sorry, I simply don’t see his view happening in real life, some people ARE just happy to grow veggies in their gardens or walk hand in hand with a loved one on the beach.
Sure there are SOME who “wanna be famous just for being famous” and stupid is society for pandering to their shallowness and yes there ARE entrepreneurs who make vast amount of money but did THOSE parents attend all their kids school plays, sit and help them with homework or take them to every practice and sports competition.. like as not.
If you really think about the “cost” to their family life , seriously… how many of us want to be them? Not me that’s for sure, or my friends, we value things like friendship and sharing, laughter and love.
We know that we are lucky and that “giving back” a little is just a way of saying that we are grateful for that… nothing more nothing less.
Rather than think that people can not be trusted, I am more and more of the view that if you give people trust that 99 times out of 100 they will rise to the occasion and more.
Of course there is the 1% who are rip off artists, but the odds of getting burned are far lower than we think if we put our trust out there on a daily basis.
Of course there are parts of his views that are true-ish… but to tar everyone with the same brush is exactly the fatal flaw in his argument.
July 9, 2012 at 9:31 am
His view certainly provokes a lot of response. I agree his view his view is rather black and white, and the way he expresses it is quite extreme, but I also think his view that people do things for personal gratification (even friendship and love are to make a person feel better) is true to an extent. But I agree, there are varying degrees.
And while I think democracy is important, I do think it’s flawed and could be tweaked. We now have politicians that make decisions based on populism rather than the best for society as a whole. They focus more on media than on policies. I think that’s wrong.
Anyway, I appreciate your views and taking the time to post considerate and insightful comments.
Cheers,
Andy
July 9, 2012 at 3:56 pm
I hadn’t heard of Hobbes until reading this, but the selfishness of everybody is a theory I have believed for a very long time. Seemingly altruistic acts are done out of a need to feel better about ourselves, and/or as a display to other members of society. I don’t really see it as a problem, as long as we acknowledge it. I have given to charity, and I can think of no better reason to give than making myself feel warm and fuzzy. It’s not like I can genuinely care about the welfare of people I’ve never met, so why pretend that? But I can tell myself that I’m helping people, doing something positive, in the face of all the negative we’re bombarded with daily.
July 10, 2012 at 2:53 pm
100% agree. Thanks for your insightful comments. This post has provoked a fair amount of comments, which is very cool.
July 11, 2012 at 7:30 pm
I think the word ‘selfish’ has gotten a very bad rap. First we have to nourish ourselves before we can be of any help or assistance to others. I’m with Stace on this one. What’s important is that we acknowledge it – and are aware of why we do things and not fool ourselves…
July 11, 2012 at 8:26 pm
I think I’ve come round to agree. Selfishness is not bad. Maybe it needs a rebrand.
July 12, 2012 at 12:16 pm
It’s a very nice thought-provoking topic!
Some people say that when we engage in selfless acts, we do that to feel better about ourselves (self-fulfillment)…therefore, that makes us selfish (they say).
If that’s how we are going to define the word “selfish,” then indeed we are all fundamentally selfish.
But if we limit the definition of “selfishness” to having a “win-lose” mentality, then whenever I do some selfless acts, even though I feel fulfillment afterwards, I should not be labeled “selfish” because my mindset is not win-lose but rather “win-win.”
Meaning, through my selfless act, I win (by feeling better about myself), and the recipient of my selfless action wins as well. We both win. We both benefit.
Now, if somebody benefits because of my selfless acts (win-win), could it be called selfishness? If that’s not selfishness, then not all people are selfish.
Maybe the answer to whether all people are selfish depends on how we define the word selfish. :-)
Thank you very much for bringing us to this healthy win-win conversations. :-)
July 12, 2012 at 10:06 pm
I liked your post it is thought provoking but i did not vote. You have visited my blog and know how I think. Some people are ignorant and need teaching some are sick and need help and if we want to change the world we must start with our self. here are some more cliches; if you want respect you must be respectful, if you want trust be trustworthy. I think you are aware of all this going by your blog..
.
July 13, 2012 at 3:05 pm
Hi Jack, no problem about voting.
And thanks for your very thoughtful comments. Yes, I have been to your blog and have an idea about your thinking.
Thanks again.
Andy
July 14, 2012 at 8:41 am
I like that you stepped out of your usual bounds to post this. Nothing wrong with making people think, which you obviously have done! I think most of are selfish, to a point. I’m not sure I agree that we’re all completely self-serving but if we think long and hard about most of our actions on a day to day basis, we’re pretty selfish. But I don’t see this as such a horrible thing. If I don’t take care of myself, I’m not going to be much good to my friends and loved ones. I am important and I’m important in the lives of others, so what I do often reflects on my relationships with them. Does that make sense? You’re making me think too hard on a Friday evening. :) Great post.
July 14, 2012 at 9:57 am
Agree. I think selfishness has a perception of all negative, when I don’t think it is.
Thanks for the great comment, especially on a Friday evening, which is a day I normally try and switch my brain off.
July 15, 2012 at 8:55 am
I agree that MOST people do things just to better themselves. People use you to get what they want and then don’t help you in the same way when you ask for something in return. They always come knocking when in need, but don’t have time for you when you need the help, which is often a simple request. I work in a profession where you think people would be all warm and fuzzy and be filled with hope and love, but I have had a rude awakening in more than one instance. I go out of my way to help others, but don’t see the return. I beleive in karma… good things will come back to you if you are kind and generous, and those who aren’t will get theirs one day. I can’t say that I always do things just to be kind, but I would say maybe I am one of the rare people who is genuine and expect nothing in return the majority of the time. Luckily my husband is the same as I, but he ends up getting mistreated by others. They assume he is out to pull one over, or is not telling the truth. It makes me think why do nice guys always seem to finish last?
July 15, 2012 at 9:21 am
Yes, it’s a dog eat dog world which is a shame. He who shouts loudest gets the most, which is ridiculous in my book.
I’m intrigued. Where in China and what work do you do?
July 15, 2012 at 9:54 am
I absolutely agree with Hobbes, that all people for the most part are selfish. I know I am and have never denied it. It is a starting point, I don’t agree that the government should make our decisions for us.
Selfish doesn’t not mean you are uncaring, inconsiderate or stingy. However I care mostly about me. Not that is something to be proud of. I recently heard something about Mother Theresa and her motivation but I can;t recall it.
Oh and I just got finished studying Hobbes in a History class I am taking. Funny.
July 15, 2012 at 10:02 am
What a coincidence!
I agree, selfish doesn’t mean bad (mostly anyway). And there are degrees of selfishness. I think that if more than one person benefits, then that’s good.
Thanks for your insightful comments. This post has generated a fair bit of comment, which is great.
July 18, 2012 at 2:36 am
I would agree with you. I don’t agree entirely with Hobbes but neither do I have a strong argument against what he says. I think we all act more selfishly than we’re aware of most of the time, and a lot of what we do is driven by how it’s going to affect us personally (looking out for number 1). Having said that, I do believe people are capable of unselfish acts, through love and care for others.
July 18, 2012 at 9:36 am
100% agree. We are capable of selflessness, but even selfish ain’t all bad
August 25, 2012 at 4:59 pm
ohh good post! I made a throwaway comment the other day – the more we have the more selfish we are. I think ppl are fundamentally selfish or self interested I guess is more like it – that’s why have individual minds and we don’t exist in a pack mentality. We are our own masters so we have to look out for our self. I think selfishness exists in varying degrees though.
I’m living in Timor at the moment and people are dirt poor and yet they will come and help you even if it takes hours out of their day. They look after each others kids and look out for their neighbours, help you if you’re having problems, and never EVER expect anything in return, least of all money…. It’s an everyday occurrence.
In Australia, it’s odd when something like this happens and we comment and praise and and are gobsmacked… because it happens so seldom.
Re politics – again, varying nature. Our political system in Oz is getting overtaken by it… “Howard Government”, “Rudd Government”… Well, it just happens that they are the leader of the party rather than being voted in by all constituents based on them as an individual, thus technically it’s a ‘Labor Government’ or a ‘Coalition Government’.
However, we see the popularity monsters come out.. The recent tilt at the leadership by Rudd (who I didn’t mind too much previously) and his wife and family’s very public role, just had me convinced that they are greedy, selfish and only thinking of themselves, not the people of Australia or their party. It was a moment of clarity indeed.
August 25, 2012 at 5:51 pm
100% agree, there are varying degrees. And selfish doesn’t mean bad, all the time I think.
Re politics, don’t get me started!
August 25, 2012 at 5:08 pm
Oh I will also put out there that I am selfish too, Mr and I often talk about how we are selfish people. That’s why we’ve struggled with being parents, especially at some of the demanding ages.
October 16, 2012 at 2:11 am
I disagree to his theory. It is 100% possible to do unselfish things with no expectancy of what to gain in return. Sometimes I do selfish things or even have selfish thoughts, but I focus on doing what is benefitting for the whole. I would say that it is easier to actually be unselfish than selfish. In order to be selfish you need to create the illusion that we are seperate.
October 29, 2012 at 8:52 pm
Reblogged this on Eldon Randall Weblog.